Hello, everyone! Welcome to the first read-along discussion post for Rhythm of War! These articles will be published concurrently with each release of a preview chapter, and will serve as a convenient way for fans to discuss and speculate about what they’ve read. Feel free to use the comment section below as simply a “wow I LOVED ___ part!” as well, if you like. We’re all fellow fans and sometimes we just need a safe place to gush about what we liked or didn’t. Don’t feel as if you need to have some deeply-thought out theory in order to join the conversation—all are welcome!
We’ll be following the same general format as the reread posts that run frequently here on Tor.com, in which Alice and I lay out comments and thoughts on the chapters and you are invited to join the discussion in the comment section. We’ll be pointing out wider Cosmere connections, continuity/character/etc tidbits you may have missed, reminding you about plot points and things that you may have forgotten, and theorizing on things that may or may not happen later on in the series—so tie yourself to the roof and prepare yourself for the highstorm book we’ve been waiting for for so long!
If you haven’t already, go read the prologue and chapter one here!
Reminder: we’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive (this includes the novella Edgedancer), wait to join us until you’re done.
[In this week’s discussion we also discuss some things from Warbreaker and Mistborn: Secret History in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read those, best to give that section a pass.]
Before we get into the meat of the discussion, we’d like to introduce ourselves briefly, in case you’re not a regular reader of the Stormlight Rereads and have no idea who we are. If you know us already (or don’t care and just want to get to the good stuff), feel free to skip down to the “Chapter Recap” heading to start digging into Rhythm of War!
Alice: I’ve been active on Tor.com as a general participant since 2009, commenting along on The Wheel of Time, Kingkiller Chronicles, and The Way of Kings rereads. I first met Brandon Sanderson ten years ago this September, on his TWoK tour, and have only missed one of his Seattle signings since then (due to being in Montana for a funeral). I joined his beta/gamma team with Words of Radiance (Lyn & I started at the same time!) and started blogging for Tor.com shortly thereafter. My first article here was all about the experience of beta-reading Words of Radiance, followed by a few more I’m-so-excited-about-this-book posts. Then, to my surprise and delight, I was asked to help write the WoR reread, and the rest is history.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
If you’re feeling a little overwhelmed going into Rhythm of War, I’ve recently been co-writing a series on Explaining the Stormlight Archive, intended to serve as a refresher on various aspects of this ginormous series. By now, I’m also active in Facebook fandoms, and help administer two Sanderson fan groups. Outside fandom, I’m mostly busy as a mom, assistant caregiver, and general sounding board for my husband and a couple of teens, with occasional forays into volleyball line judging.
Lyn: I’ve been a Sanderson beta and gamma reader since Words of Radiance (seven years?! Wow!) and joined Alice on the reread for Edgedancer and Oathbringer, as well as having written some stand-alone articles here on Tor.com about Cosmere cosplay and fan-casting. It’s worth noting that I’m also a legitimate member of Bridge 4 through a tuckerization, so don’t be surprised if/when we mention this later on. In addition to my work with Team Dragonsteel, I am a fantasy author in my own right with my first novel being released on Amazon on August 1st. The Kickstarter for the audiobook edition is turning out to be very successful, and I’m super excited to see what the general reaction to the book is! My day job is as an actress at several Renaissance/Medieval Faires in the New England area (::sobs because they’ve all been cancelled::), and I also enjoy cosplay, fire dancing, and traveling to strange (and often haunted) locations.
One small note. While we are both beta readers and hence have read the entire book, we will be keeping all of our speculation and discussion confined to what has been released so far. As such, you may notice that we’re not engaging in quite as much speculation and theory-crafting as usual. We’ll be leaving that primarily to you guys in the comments. That said… I’m so excited to begin analyzing this book!
A: No kidding! This is an amazing entry in the series, and there’s so much to learn! I promise not to be intentionally mendacious in the small amounts of speculation I include, and base it only on what we knew before we read this.
L: I make no such promises about not lying about things to throw you off track. ::evil grin:: So much to learn, and analyze, and dissect…. I hope you’re all ready, because you’re in for one heck of a ride. At least 2020 is giving us this to look forward to!
Chapter Recap
Prologue: To Pretend / Chapter One: Calluses
WHO: Navani Kholin / Lirin
WHERE: Kholinar / Hearthstone
WHEN: Prologue Seven Years Ago (the night that Gavilar is assassinated) / 1175.2.8.1 (ETA: approximately one year after the Battle of Thaylen Field; the timeline has shifted slightly so we don’t know the exact date)
In the prologue, we get yet another view of the night of Gavilar’s assassination. From Navani’s point of view, we see how troubled her marriage is and get a glimpse of some of the secret dealings that Gavilar is having with the Heralds.
Chapter one brings us to Hearthstone, one year after the events of Oathbringer. Lirin, Kaladin’s father, is caring for Herdazian refugees and surreptitiously looking for the arrival of the leader of a rebellious military group. Lirin finds the man, whose nickname is The Mink, and begins leading him off to hide in the surgery tent until Kaladin arrives. But their departure is interrupted by the arrival of one of the Fused, who is here looking for Kaladin.
Overall Reactions
A: The prologue, from Navani’s perspective, obviously creates yet another angle on the eventful evening. I thought it was really well done that in this one, the assassination itself doesn’t come up until it’s long over.
L: Yeah, I love seeing the new angles on the assassination that we get with every prologue. As a reminder, in Book 1 we got Szeth’s perspective as he killed his way through the feast, eventually killing Gavliar. In Book 2, we see the same event again, but from Jasnah’s point of view. Book 3 gave us Eshonai’s take on it, and now… now we get Navani. It’s very similar to how Orson Scott Card set up the same thing (on a wider scale) with Ender’s Game and ender’s Shadow, providing the reader with new information that broadens their understanding of the story by telling it from a different perspective.
A: For me, given that we already know Gavilar dies and all that, this prologue is more fascinating for the insight into Navani’s life and personality. That line about “just a backwater country girl wearing someone else’s clothing” is so revealing.
L: For sure. Even Navani Kholin gets impostor syndrome, apparently.
A: Exactly. On the one hand, I appreciate her desire to oversee the aspects of ruling a nation that her husband so readily neglects, and I really appreciate her treating the various staff like actual human beings. On the other hand, isn’t it a bit ridiculous for the queen to be the one figuring out where to make extra space for the over-abundance of guests? Isn’t that the job of the steward? Certainly the issues of soothing a highprince who feels neglected, or reviewing trade situations, that sort of thing – those would be the purview of the king, and by extension the queen acting on his behalf. But household management? Nope. All of which is to say, poor Navani. She knows what her job is, in most cases, but she doesn’t quite know what it isn’t, even after all these years. The result is that she spends too much time doing things she shouldn’t need to do, unable to delegate them, and rarely has the time to do the things she wants to do.
I get distracted with Navani’s personal situation, but the other incredibly fascinating thing about this prologue is the multiple hints and revelations—mostly hints, of course—into the secret stuff Gavilar is doing. Oddly-glowing spheres, master artifabrians, “uncommon figures” and the list goes on. As per Sanderson’s habit, he showers us with a bunch of answers we didn’t really expect yet, and they all lead to more questions!
L: Storms, yes. The secret societies and machinations going on behind the scenes in Roshar are endlessly fascinating, and none more so than whatever the heck the Heralds were up to with Gavilar—because these shadowy figures are, indeed, Heralds.
A: “Uncommon figures.” Riiiiight.
L: I mean… they are uncommon!
A: Bahahahahaha! Well, okay, yes.
L: In Chapter One, we see our first Lirin POV section. This is pretty fascinating, because as of now we’ve only seen him from his son (Kaladin)’s eyes. Just as Kal knows and we’ve always seen, Lirin is very averse to war and fighting, regardless of cause. He views it as a terrible, needless waste of life, which runs directly contrary to Kaladin’s interpretation of his second Windrunner Ideal: “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.” This makes him a wonderful foil for Kal.
A: In a way it’s contrary, and in a way it’s the same—they both do their very best to help and protect those who cannot protect themselves.
L: Yes, they just have very different ideas of the best way to achieve that end goal.
A: There you go with the understatement… LOL.
Humans
Laral wore a simple servant’s dress now, with a gloved hand instead of a sleeve, and she carried a water bucket to the waiting refugees.
L: Reminder: Laral is the girl from Hearthstone whom Kaladin had a crush on when he was a child. She wound up marrying Roshone, the citylord who sent Kaladin and his little brother Tien off to war.
A: It would be so easy to say, “How the mighty have fallen!”… but I actually love the way she matured. Horrible situation, home is under hostile rule—so she pulls on a glove and gets to work caring for her people. Oddly enough, her once-horrible husband does the same thing, at least to some extent; here we see him putting on a drunk act while doing the lowest job in the town, distracting the singer guards from Lirin smuggling the Mink right into town.
L: Yes, I found myself giving Roshone a smidgen of grudging respect for his actions in Chapter One.
Dieno enne Calah. Dieno “the Mink” in Old Herdazian. Hesina had explained that enne was an honorific that implied greatness.
A: In case anyone didn’t make the connection, the Mink is the Herdazian commander we saw in Oathbringer Interlude 10. He’s the general who makes a game of escaping manacles, and gave that rat Sheler the choice between being hacked to pieces by the women he’d abused, hanging out in a highstorm with broken arms & legs, or wrestling the hog.
Singers/Fused
She narrowed her eyes at Lirin, and when she next spoke there was a cadence to her words, as if she were speaking the words to a song. “Did you feel for me, the poor confused slave child whose mind had been stolen from her? Did you weep for us, surgeon, and the life we led?”
L: In Oathbringer, we saw a lot of this—questioning of the morals of the slavery of the parsh.
A: We’ve been following this path for a while, developing sympathy for the parsh slaves so that we do—and should—question both the process and the morals of their enslavement. Back in WoR, despite her conviction that they were Voidbringers, Shallan couldn’t help feeling a certain pity for Tvlakv’s parshmen, weaving hats continuously, without even names of their own—they were just “One” and “Two.” Our insights with the listeners, and getting to know Rlain, and learning that the ancient Bondsmith had done something to deprive them of their minds and forms, all set us up for Oathbringer. When Kaladin was with the recently-awakened and recently-escaped slaves, we saw them just barely beginning to reflect the Rhythms in their speech, and later in Venli’s POVs, we saw it developing further. It was all a strong reminder to the reader that these people had lost everything that made them … well, a people. They were still, in some measure, individuals—and yet, many people saw them as interchangeable parts; the only distinction worth noting was (sometimes) what tasks they had been trained to perform.
L: Their culture was erased and replaced with that of their captors, so this process of rediscovering their ancient societal norms is a really fascinating one. Some of the singers are resistant to it and cling to bits of the culture they grew up with, while others are eschewing the trends of their captors entirely.
A: Now the singers hold the upper hand—at least here in Hearthstone—and we’re seeing the struggle to sort out who they are and what culture they want for themselves. It’s really awful to think about what was done to them (even though we know they were allied with Odium’s forces), to put them in this situation where there is such conflict between the only culture they know, and the one the Fused tell them they should have.
Also, I don’t know about you, but I found it a bit of a shock to find a “parshwoman” singer who grew up right here in Hearthstone, now functioning as the new citylady. (Exactly the opposite of Laral, in fact, come to think of it.)
The Fused had explained that singers in the past eschewed bright colors, preferring to highlight their skin patterns instead.
L: Oh, this is a fun new note about singer culture that we didn’t know before!
A: Yep, that’s a good one! Part of me is fascinated with the things they learn about their ancestors, and part of me finds it frustrating to watch them try to figure out how to meld their experience with what their new overlords tell them they should be.
The dreadful creature had a beard and long hair the color of dried blood, and it seemed to meld with his simple wrap of clothing—as if he wore his hair itself for a covering. He had a pure black skin coloring, with lines of marbled red under his eyes.
Most importantly, he had a jagged carapace unlike any Lirin had seen, with a strange pair of carapace fins—or horns—rising above his ears.
L: I don’t think it’s any accident that this Fused looks how we stereotypically code demons or devils in our real-life culture.
A: No accident at all. I don’t believe we saw this kind in Oathbringer, or anyone that looked quite this… bizarre. This one triggers every reaction for the reader. (Or at least for this reader.)
Relationships & Romances
Navani & Gavilar
A: Oh. My. Stars. What a cruel jerk he is in this prologue! He belittles her. He doesn’t care for her interests. He doesn’t trust her. He accuses her of something he knows she didn’t do – but her innocence doesn’t matter, because people are saying things, and his reputation is more important than objective truth.
L: Well… he doesn’t know that Navani didn’t cheat on him, per se. He knows that she denies it. But he doesn’t know for sure. Not to say that this excuses his behavior even one iota, because you’re right—he’s a total and complete d-bag.
A: I can’t help wondering if he has some small inkling that he’s treated her poorly over the years, and in his arrogance, he wants to make it all her fault.
L: Well, that would track with abusive behavior. It’s never their fault.
“Gavilar had invited one of the world’s most prominent artifabrians to visit Kholinar, and he hadn’t bothered to tell Navani?”
L: He’s just so uncaring. He doesn’t care about her wants, her desires, her pain, anything at all. It’s all about him. We’ll dig deeper into this down in the Bruised and Broken section.
A: It reminds me of one of Dalinar’s flashbacks (Chapter 36), where he was so furious with Gavilar for completely ignoring Navani’s excitement about her research into spren. He certainly didn’t have the excuse of rumors about her back then; he just didn’t care what she was saying, if it didn’t visibly further his own goals.
Navani & Dalinar
“And . . . there was Dalinar. Standing tall. Somehow taller than any man in the room. He wasn’t drunk yet, and people orbited him like they might a fire on a cold night—needing to be close, but fearing the true heat of his presence. Those haunted eyes of his, simmering with passion.
Storms alight. She excused herself and made a brief exit up the steps to where she wouldn’t feel so warm.”
* * *
What good was a kingdom if Gavilar knew that his wife secretly loved his brother?
A: It appears that by this time, Navani has realized that she loves Dalinar more than Gavilar. Her own claim has always been that she loved them both, but chose Gavilar. Back in The Way of Kings, she said only that she chose the “safer” alternative because Dalinar was frightening. Here, she admits to herself that while it was true that she loved them both, and it was true that Dalinar’s intensity frightened her, there is also truth to the notion that she chose the one with the power and influence. Relationships are complicated.
L: Hooboy, ain’t they just? It must be incredibly difficult to be trapped in what has turned out to be a loveless, abusive marriage while the person you really love is constantly around you, reminding you of what you don’t have.
A: I can’t help wondering if Dalinar has enough perception during this time to realize how miserable Navani is, and how awful their marriage is.
L: I wouldn’t think so, with how deeply in the grip of his grief, self-loathing, and alcoholism he is.
Navani & Aesudan
“She tried not to take Aesudan’s general sourness toward her as a personal affront; it was the prerogative of every woman to feel threatened by her mother-in-law. Particularly when the girl was so obviously lacking in talents.”
L: Oof. Every so often, Navani comes out with something like this that makes me dislike her a bit. Most of the time, I really adore her as a character, but she does have a very cruel, judgmental streak. Something that Jasnah seems to have inherited.
A: Of course, she’s right about Aesudan’s character flaws, but like you, as much as I love Navani, I can’t help wondering if she could have handled her daughter-in-law differently. Could she have changed the course of events simply by being more of a mentor? She changed her attitude toward Evi, after all.
“Aesudan,” Navani said, her eyes still on the ardent, who was now slowly walking toward the monastery. “Could you help the kitchens with whatever they need? I’d like to . . .”
But Aesudan was already hurrying off toward another group in the gardens…
L: But then, there’s things like this, and I consider that maybe Navani’s got good reason to be judgmental. Like Gavilar, she seems to be incredibly self-centered and lacks empathy.
A: She does her best to be unlikable, doesn’t she? It’s worth remembering that on this same evening, Jasnah was making arrangements to have Aesudan watched by an assassin, just in case—and at that, the “watching” was a last-minute change to what was originally probably a straight-up assassination.
Jasnah & Amaram
“Speak to your daughter,” Gavilar said, turning toward the door. “I believe I have managed to soothe Amaram’s pride. He might take her back, and her time is running out. Few other suitors will consider her; I’ll likely need to pay half the kingdom to get rid of the girl if she denies Meridas again.”
L: Ugh. I’m so, so glad that this never worked out (and never will, now that Amaram’s bitten the bullet as of the end of Oathbringer). (Also… “YOUR” daughter? Not “our?” Gross.)
A: YES. Ugh.
Bruised & Broken
“Do you know,” he said softly, “how tired I grow of your constant questions, woman?”
“Perhaps try answering one or two, then. It’d be a novel experience, treating your wife like a human being—rather than like a machine built to count the days of the week for you.”
L: ALL PRAISE NAVANI KHOLIN, QUEEN OF THE CLAPBACKS.
A: Ouch. If this is the way he’s been treating her all along, it’s kind of a shock that she didn’t make those rumors truth. She once said (TWoK ch. 61) she’d never been unfaithful to Gavilar, though he’d given her ample reason—now we know some of what that reason was.
He had never used his strength against her, not in that way, but there had been words. Comments. Threats.
L: This made me flinch. Poor, poor Navani. Words can be just as harmful as physical violence. I’m so upset for what she had to suffer for so long. And you know what the worst part is? I’m not really convinced that things would have been much better with Dalinar, not as he was then. I’m not convinced that the Blackthorn was capable of truly loving anyone, not even his own sons. I’m glad that she and he didn’t wind up together until after he’d found himself.
A: True. It’s not like Dalinar treated Evi any better than Gavilar treated Navani. (I’ll bet their father treated their mother much the same, too.)
L: Honestly, Dalinar always just seemed very apathetic towards Evi. I don’t recall him ever being so directly hurtful towards her…
A: I remember a few times seeing her flinch back when he shouted at her, and he did tend to brush off or minimize some things that really mattered to her. But you’re right, he never deliberately said things for the sole purpose of hurting her, nor did he use her insecurities as a club the way Gavilar does to Navani. So… yeah, Evi didn’t have the best marriage, but when Dalinar wasn’t under the Thrill, he did try to give her a good life. The best Navani can hope for is to get a nice bracelet later.
Gavilar didn’t care if she’d been unfaithful to him—and she hadn’t. But the things she’d said had started rumors, difficult to smother.
L: Okay. Now I’m deathly curious as to what things she said that started rumors!
A: Right? It’s driving me nuts.
“You aren’t worthy, Navani. You claim to be a scholar, but where are your discoveries? You study light, but you are its opposite. A thing that destroys light. You spend your time wallowing in the muck of the kitchens and obsessing about whether or not some insignificant lighteyes recognizes the right lines on a map.
“These are not the actions of greatness. You are no scholar. You merely like being near them. You are no artifabrian. You are merely a woman who likes trinkets. You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. Everything distinctive about you came from someone else. You have no power—you merely like to marry men who have it.” …
“You went where the money and power would be greatest,” Gavilar said. “Like any common whore.”
L: Wow. Talk about hitting where it hurts. He went in for the killing blow on this one.
A: You know what infuriates me about this? She could have done all that stuff, if she’d had time and the slightest bit of encouragement. He spent years simply ignoring her interests, and now he drops all the kingdom-running on her while he pursues secret projects he thinks will make him legendary. She could have been a scholar and artifabrian with great accomplishments—but not while soothing the kitchen staff, soothing the neglected lighteyes, covering for his rudeness.
L: You’re absolutely right. He’s attributing things to laziness or lack of worth that are actually his fault.
What was she doing? Praying for her husband’s death?
L: This has to have long-term effects on her. This sort of guilt doesn’t just get wiped away.
A: Indeed. Come to think of it, is this what the Stormfather meant back in the Dalinar/Navani wedding scene, where he accused Navani of having broken oaths before?
L: Ooooh, yeah, you might be right…
“Heroism is a myth you tell idealistic young people—specifically when you want them to go bleed for you. It got one of my sons killed and another taken from me. You can keep your heroism and return to me the lives of those wasted on foolish conflicts.”
L: I don’t agree with Lirin, but I can absolutely understand where he’s coming from on this. I can only imagine that after seeing Heralds-only-know-how-many soldiers dead or dying, that you’ll become jaded to the entire idea of war.
A: As with a few other characters, I can’t help wondering if there’s something else in Lirin’s backstory that created this kind of cynicism in him. It’s absolutely true that those with power will, all too often, play on the idealism of youth to carry out the most horrible agendas. That doesn’t mean there’s no true heroism, but I can totally see his viewpoint.
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
Gavilar suddenly stood up straight and glanced toward the doorway, though Navani hadn’t made any sound.
L: To me, this reads as a clue that he has a spren speaking to him already. But is it a Radiant spren, or a Void spren?
A: Gah. I don’t want Gavilar to have a Radiant spren! We know he was seeing the Stormfather visions and was on the Bondsmith path. This… really does come across as though there’s a spren involved, though, and not the Stormfather. Could it have been a Voidspren like Ulim?
L: That would make a lot of sense.
Cosmere Connections
“. . . Being able to bring them back and forth from Braize doesn’t mean anything,” one said. “It’s too close to be a relevant distance.”
“It was impossible only a few short years ago,” said a deep, powerful voice. Gavilar. “This is proof. The Connection is not severed, and the box allows for travel. Not yet as far as you’d like, but we must start the journey somewhere.”
L: Here we go. Let the Cosmere theories begin! Alice, you want to take lead on this one?
A: I’d love to, if I only knew where to start!! It would seem that they’ve figured out how to use something—Stormlight? Voidlight? Spren?—to send an object in a box from Roshar to Braize and back again. It looks to me like they’re experimenting with space travel of a sort—the kind that brought humans to Roshar in the first place, not just the kind most worldhoppers use by travelling through the Cognitive realm. Instantaneous space travel.
L: So, Star Trek transporters? Or, maybe more like lightspeed in Star Wars? Or or or maybe Stargates! (I’m having too much fun here.)
A: I’ll go with transporters, I think. That seems most similar. Alternatively, it could be that they know something about Investiture and its geocentric nature, and are experimenting to see how far a spren can be sent from its home planet before Connection is broken. The Heralds and the Fused seem to have at least some understanding of realmatics and the Cosmere, though the humans of the current era seem to have lost any of that knowledge. At this point I have no idea what kinds of esoteric things Gavilar may have learned, so we can only guess at how he’s trying to use it.
Given the players in this particular conversation, however… This is Gavilar talking with Nale and (by process of elimination) Kalak (see below), and Kalak is insisting that he wants “out.” Combined with Braize being “not as far as you’d like” to travel, it almost sounds like they’re looking for a way to take a Cognitive Shadow away from its home planet, and away from its home system altogether. Could they be on the edge of figuring out how to make a magic system work beyond its normal reach?
L: Interesting. I wasn’t aware that the magic systems had boundaries—we certainly see other Worldhoppers utilizing magic from different planets, like Hoid/Wit, Azure/Vivenna, and Zahel/Vasher. Though I guess two of them are from the same planet, Nalthis (from Warbreaker), and the magic system there is very inwardly-focused. We’ve seen Hoid use other forms of Investiture, haven’t we? We know from Secret History that he has Allomantic capabilities, but do we ever see him use those on Roshar?
A: Hmm. Now that you mention it, yes. Here on Roshar we see Hoid use Yolish Lightweaving; he comments on the benefits of holding Breath; he used Allomancy in Words of Radiance, and he was using white sand in Kholinar during Oathbringer.
L: He used Allomancy? When? I don’t remember that!
A: At Middlefest, Shallan saw him put some powder in his own drink, and then later he apparently used it to Soothe her.
L: See a “Word of Brandon” quote on the subject here.
A: But now I’ve disproven my own suggestion… so what were they doing?
L: Heck if I know. But I’m excited to see the speculation in the comments!
A: Indeed! I think I’m missing something obvious…
Secret Societies
““He was last seen with Brightlord Amaram and some of those . . . uncommon figures.”
That was the term the palace staff used for Gavilar’s new friends, the ones who seemed to arrive without warning or announcement, and who rarely gave their names.”
L: If you’re like me and get easily confused/forgetful about the different secret societies and what they’re up to… Gavilar is associated with the Sons of Honor.
The king was speaking with two men that Navani vaguely recognized. A tall Makabaki man with a birthmark on his cheek and a shorter Vorin man with a round face and a small nose. They’d been called ambassadors from the West, but no kingdom had been given for their home.
L: Reminder that the Makabaki man is Nale, aka one of the Heralds, and the other is almost certainly Kalak. But this is odd to me. What’s Gavilar doing talking to them directly, if the Sons of Honors’ goal is to bring back the Fused in order to usher in a return of the Heralds? They’re… right there. He’s talking to them. So… why? Are they hoping to forge a new Oathpact, maybe?
A: Or do the Sons of Honor only think Gavilar is part of their organization? Is he just using them and their resources to pursue his own goals? His later words to Navani about his legacy… I wonder.
Plus, you need to know that another of us is here tonight. I spotted her handiwork earlier.”
L: Presumably he’s talking about Shalash here, as in other POV sections we’re told that the statue of her has been destroyed, which is her MO. The palace was just filled with Heralds that night! (Jezrien was there, too.)
A: You know, I’d always assumed that she’d been there a long time ago and removed her statue, but now I realize that doesn’t make any sense. In the Kholinar palace, there’s no way they’d let a missing statue of a Herald just be missing for any length of time. Looking back, it now seems obvious from Szeth’s thoughts in the Prologue of TWoK that the missing statue would have to be very recently removed. So of course Shalash is here. That’s four Heralds. Are there others? (I half expect to find out eventually that all nine of them were there in some guise.)
L: I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised.
“I deal in secrets you could not handle, Navani. If you knew the scope of what I’ve begun . . .”
I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end. I will never end.”
L: So… was he trying to become a Fused, then? Since their souls are reborn again and again into the physical realm…
A: Was he trying to become a new Herald, taking Kalak’s place? (Except maybe without the torture part?) I don’t know what he wanted. To become a new and greater Herald on Roshar, thinking he could actually destroy the Fused and be the legendary hero who freed them from the Voidbringers? To be a greater Fused? To Ascend and become Honor’s Vessel? To take both Honor and Odium, combining them into a new Shard? He certainly had ambition, whatever his goal was.
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
It had been over a year since the coming of the Everstorm and the fall of Alethkar. A year during which the country of Herdaz—Alethkar’s smaller neighbor to the northwest—had somehow kept fighting. Two months ago, the enemy had finally decided to crush the kingdom for good.
L: Poor Herdazians. I hope that Lopen’s extended family are all okay!
A: Given that all Herdazians seem to see each other as “cousins,” it’s pretty much given that he’s lost some of them. Still, they seem to be a people who practice being cheerfully difficult. We’ve seen that in Lopen since the first book, and now it looks like he comes by it honestly!
In any case, it seems that all of Alethkar has indisputably come under the control of the Fused & the singers. Now Herdaz joins them, at least in terms of control of the land itself. The people, maybe not so much.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
On the table between Gavilar and the men lay a group of spheres. Navani’s breath caught as she saw them. They were arrayed in a variety of colors and brightness, but several seemed strangely off. They glowed with an inverse of light, as if they were little pits of violet darkness, sucking in the color around them.
L: Oooh, interesting! Inverse of light? Voidlight, maybe?
A: Sure seems like a probability, given the descriptions we’ve seen of it so far!
The thing that’s going to really blow minds here, though, is the “group of spheres” on that table. There’s been raging debate in the fandom about whether Gavilar actually had two funky spheres. We’ve known for a long time that he gave one to Szeth, which the latter then hid somewhere in Jah Keved. We learned in Oathbringer that Gavilar also gave one to Eshonai, and so there was a question as to whether Eshonai’s was somehow returned to Gavilar, or if the one he gave Szeth was a second one.
Now we see that there were a whole group of them. Some of the ones Navani sees are probably just normal infused spheres, but there are also several—not just one, not just two, but several of the dark spheres lying on that table. When Navani checks after his death, though, the pouch is empty. What did he do with all of them??
L: I remember there being a lot of theorizing that some of the Unmade were trapped in these spheres, too…
A: Yes, there was a LOT of that. I’ve never believed it, though I certainly can’t disprove it. I think my biggest objection was that I just couldn’t see Gavilar handing Unmade-containing gemstones to Szeth and Eshonai so casually. The other objection, which I think is much stronger, is that these things on Gavilar’s desk are spheres – small gemstones encased in glass. The two cases we’ve seen of trapping an Unmade require “perfect gemstones”—not spheres—and the one of those we actually saw on the page was huge. The King’s Drop is described as the size of a child’s head. That’s most definitely not a sphere!
First, you must get a spren to approach.
The type of gemstone is relevant; some spren are naturally more intrigued by certain gemstones. In addition, it is essential to calm the spren with something it knows and loves. A good fire for a flamespren, for example, is a must.
L: It’s always cool to see more about fabrial tech! Though I have to admit that this act of trapping the spren has never sat right with me. They may not be sapient, but they are still living creatures, sort of. Trapping them this way just seems… cruel, to me.
A: Taravangian first told us about trapping spren with something they love, and Dalinar put that knowledge to good use when he trapped Nergaoul in the King’s Drop back on Thaylen Field. I’m still on the fence as to whether it’s cruel like trapping a wild animal, or generous like adopting a rescue puppy and guaranteeing it good food and cuddles for life. It’s trapped in the gemstone, true—but it’s also going to be given all the Stormlight it could want. In a sapient being (a human), I would question this: is it worth exchanging freedom for satiation? In a sentient being, the wild animal vs. rescue puppy is a more apt analogy, and has more to do with training than anything else. But are these spren even sentient, or are they more on the level of plants, flourishing when they have the right combination of water & light and dying when they don’t? Until we know more about the lower-level spren, we can’t really answer that.
L: Finally, this doesn’t have to do with fabrials or spheres, but I just have to point out how very…. timely this is:
“Disease isn’t caused by spren,” Lirin said. “It is spread by contaminated water, improper sanitation, or sometimes by the breath of those who bear it.”
L: (We hope you’re all doing okay out there, and remembering to wear your masks. Please be safe and take care of yourselves and those you love.)
A: Personally, I find it moderately hilarious that this was written well over a year ago, long before we ever heard of the novel coronavirus or COVID-19. Who knew Sanderson was a prophet?
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Also, remember to be careful about spoilers out there in the big wide world. A lot of people aren’t going to read the pre-release chapters (not wishing to torture themselves with one or two chapters a week); please respect that decision, and don’t damage their reading experience when it finally comes.
Alice is delighted to finally be able to start talking about Rhythm of War with the wider fan community. Don’t forget the spoiler tags!
Lyndsey is simultaneously thrilled and terrified about the release of her first full-length novel, which she has been working on for over five years. If you’d like a preview, check out the first three chapters on her website or go visit the Kickstarter page to listen to a sample of the eventual audiobook! And if you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram (though admittedly it’s been hard to come up with new cosplay content during a pandemic).
Seems to me that Gavilar was under Odium’s influence, much the way that Shallan’s father was. Navani does note that he wasn’t always a jerk.
The prologue has solidified my dislike for Gavilar. From the moment he made that comment to Jasnah in WoR, I started to dislike him as a person as well as a king. Dalinar’s flashbacks built on that–especially how upset he was that Dalinar chose to spare a weeping child because it caused trouble when the boy grew up. His willingness to use his brother for brutality so he could keep his hands clean but still benefit from the results made me hate him. And here he is, doing the same thing to Navani. Using her determination to keep their kingdom running smoothly as a club to batter her over the head because she’s too busy doing the dull, necessary work to reach his percieved level of greatness. His disdain towards every member of his family is terrible–no wonder Ehlokar was such a miserable king, he’s probably gone though the same thing.
I remember a lot of speculation as to why his family could still love Dalinar so much when he was so demonstrably terrible. Gavilar is twice as bad, and he’s subtle about it. Even in the present day, Navani won’t speak badly of him to Dalinar because Dalinar doesn’t want to let go of that precious image of his brother. And I can sympathize with that, I really can, because when you’ve devoted your whole life to someone it’s hard to realize they may not have been worth everything you gave them. But I really hope this comes out. Navani shouldn’t have to hide and minimize just so her daughter and husband can keep that perfect image of Gavilar.
I think it’s more in the vein of Gavilar’s pride to try to become a herald. Historically, wouldn’t the Heralds have been held up as an ideal to aspire to? as opposed to some like ascending?
Also, with Nale parading around killing anyone who has attracted Spren, why isn’t he trying to off Gavilar? Surely Gavilar’s actions would be something that piss him off…
Dont we have a reasonable suspicion of at least 5 heralds present?
Jesrien was Ahu
Nale was the Makabaki man
Kelek was with him
Ash was at least there very recently
Chana (?) was Liss the assassin, or so we suspect. Although if it WAS her, why didn’t Nale and Kelek warn Gavilar about her, too? They only mentioned Ash.
One we know wasn’t there was the one with Taravangian. So all 9 being there was unlikely.
Wait…looney theory time: what if “the box” was preparing a jailbreak for Taln? Get Taln off of Braize without him breaking his oath, so the Fused stay there forever? Would that work? Would Nale & co. know that it is/isn’t?
This may have been theorized somewhere else – is it possible that Gavilar DID transport his soul elsewhere, or even into one of those spheres, allowing him to come back in some type of Fused like state that would require Dalinar to defeat him? Imagine how hard that would be for Dalinar to have to fight and possibly kill the brother he worshipped and felt like he had let down so badly at the feast. Also, I don’t have a link to a WoB on this, but I know I’ve read a few of them where he talked about how hard it would be to use Stormlight outside the Rosharan system because of the spren bond. He said people can use Magic outside their natural system in the other worlds (or at least most of them) which we’ve seen both here and in other Cosmere books, but it’s very, very difficult to move spren due to their connection Shadesmar. That’s what I thought about when I read the “Connection” part, that they figured out the preliminaries to moving the Nahel bond.
Your comment about Nale seems right to me. We have been shown in the other books that he is opposed to the resumption of the desolations and has taken to killing pre-radiants, so how is it he’s in league with Gavilar and the sons of honor. Amaram has said that he wants the heralds to return, Nale, being a herald himself, working with those looking to return them to glory? Something is off about that.
Well done on distinguishing sapient from sentient. I find a lot of people muddle them up.
I totally missed that The Mink was the Herdazian general from the Oathbringer interlude… It’s the Rosharan Houdini! I love that guy!
#5 – I love your loony jailbreak theory.
#6 – Arg! You have an interesting theory and I hope you’re wrong because I never want to see Gavilar again outside of flashbacks. If he ever does manage to come back, I hope it’s Navani that ends him.
Hmmm… Was the “the breath of those that bear it” line really in there from the start? Perhaps can one of you beta readers go back to the earliest version of this chapter you saw, and tell us if it was as eerily prophetic as Alice says it is? I read it as a clever nod to the times, that Brandon added sometime before we first saw this chapter in April.
@11 – Yes, that line was in the beta. (I checked again before I wrote that.) Funny thing is that we read this part in beta before we knew about SARS-COV-2, so no one commented on it, other than noting the standard question about whether spren are cause or effect.
THE HYPE TRAIN IS ROLLING!!
I won’t be reading any of the preview chapters or commentary as I am waiting for my actual copy of the book until I dive in, but I AM HYPED!!!
Enjoy the discussion and I’ll join in around November!
The question that the prologue brought to mind for me is, how sure are we that Gavilar is dead? I mean, we’ve seen people preserve an essence of themselves past the physical realm, and I find his statement of “I will never end” really chilling.
It could I guess be a juxtaposition to him dying almost immediately after and thus showing his insignificance, but I’m not so sure…
In this Quote despite the nothing supernatural it makes me wonder if he is invested.
Beyond that, there was an air of… distortion around Gavilar. Nothing supernatural or nonsensical. It was just that… well, you accepted that Gavilar could do whatever he wanted, in defiance of any tradition or logic. For him, it would work out. It always did.
I initially thought Breath as Nale would have a hard time working with him as a budding Radiant. We also know he had been receiving visions from the Stormfather but never spoke an Ideal. We also know that Breath can have that effect and Brandon doesn’t do things like this without intending to… IMO Gavilar hid his budding Radiance with Breath.
my reading of galivar and the heralds is that he was working to give them a way out of roshar, not a way to get taln out…
“There’s more here, Nale!” the Vorin man said, though he followed as his friend left. “This is important! I want out. This is the only way…”
I bet what Kalak is trying to do is to sever his Conection to Roshar. The Heralds are cognitive shadows so they have a hard time leaving the space of the world they’re on, similar to spren and shards that have invested on a world. This also ties in with the theory that the heralds have a madness that’s the opposite of their perceived attributes since Kalak is known as resolute/building, and running away to a different planet is basically the opposite of that.
So, uhh, hardcore spoilers, here. Like, every prologue foreshadows some huge reveal near the end of the book, and if I’m right about this, it’s actually almost as big of a reveal as Oathbringer’s. I didn’t expect Brando to manage such a thing, but if I’m right, I’m floored to be surprised, because I NEVER even considered it before.
Re-read the first 3 prologues assuming that Gavilar is under Odium’s influence and the Singers are actually doing the best they can to live up to Honor’s sacrifice and tell me that the Listeners’ sacrifice isn’t the most tragic thing you’ve ever read. If you miss the line in THE FIRST [expletive] PROLOGUE OF THE SERIES 1-5 ARC that seems like obvious foreshadowing under this assumption, it’s this: “The Parshendi? That makes no sense.”
Seriously, please quote me on this so I can feel silly when I’m wrong. Please. PLEASE. Otherwise, I’ll be awaiting my internet award when the prologue from Gavilar’s PoV has him literally speaking to the Rhythm of Reprimand when asking Eshonai why she isn’t glad to hear that he’s her ‘ally’ in returning her gods.
Whoops, forgot to mention a few things:
With regards to my theory in 20: Kalak wanting out likely means that he wants out of the Oathpact, everything he and Nale are talking to Gavilar about has to do with getting Odium off-planet, and (now the opposite of ‘dependable’) he’s trying to save his own skin, even if it damns the rest of the Cosmere.
With regards to greater Cosmere insanity, my First Rule of Sanderson is this: If he spends a sentence bringing attention to a microscopic gesture, it is Important. In the prologue, that sentence is “He was fidgeting with the rings on his left hand.” This is a long shot, compared to my theory above, but I’m guessing that 10-15 years from now, we’ll learn that some combination of Feruchemy and another magic allows one to use Feruchemy with a specific Intent, or something. Simply put, the ‘fidgeting,’ is intentional (or, literally, Intentional [I swear, that wasn’t int purposeful]).
So, I am more and more convinced that Gavilar was not a true member of the Sons of Honor, but was instead trying to use them for his own ends. Remember that when Szeth is about to kill him, his first guess is that Thaidakar is behind it, but his second guess is Restares, which to me does not make sense if Gavilar is a loyal member of the Sons of Honor. (His third guess is Sadeas, which could be because he was a mover in one of Roshar’s secret societies, or it could just be because the man was an eel).
Reading his interaction with the Heralds, one thing becomes clear: he knows who Nale and Kelek are (“Plus, you need to know that another of us is here tonight. I spotted her handiwork earlier.” which I’m assuming refers to Ash).
Moving on to rampant speculation: I think (as someone else has suggested earlier) that Gavilar intended to become a Herald*. More specifically, my guess is he intended to somehow assume Kelek’s position. This presumably involves the transference of the Connection that makes a Herald from Kelek over to Gavilar, something that is probably possible with the laws of the Cosmere (especially given some of the things we’ve seen on Scadrial). It should be noted that this Connection is probably a very complex thing, given the nature of the Oathpact, and it probably involves Connection with a few, or all, of the following elements: Roshar, Braize, Honor (or His splintered remains), Odium and Cultivation.
*: Actually, I suddenly realize that his actions might not be inconsistent with allegiance to the Sons of Honor, if Gavilar then intends to use his position as a Herald to usher in a return to the dominance of the Vorin church. This requires further pondering.
First Gavilar. I am really getting the impression that he’s more than just a bad guy, the things he says to Navani are downright villainous. I’m getting an Odious vibe from him and I have a feeling that Last prologue is gonna be epic. Btw, we know from Dalinar and Venli that having a voidspren or even an Unmade bond doesn’t prevent you from attracting a Nahel (H/C) spren. So if he had an Ulim type of guy or an Unmade hanging around whispering secrets it wouldn’t necessarily interfere with his potential Bondsmith candidacy.
Second Nale. Two possibilities for Nale working with Gavilar even though it’s almost certain he’s got a spren or soon will acquire one. Either the killing spree of proto-Radiants is something recent, recent being defined as after the Gavilar assassination party or Gavilar was on Nale’s to-do list but placed on the back burner because he was doing something useful. It kinda depends on how soon signs of the upcoming Desolation began to manifest. I mean we all assume that Nale has been killing for centuries but that may not have been the case.
Three the Mink. I really hope that guy becomes our new Dustbringer. I think Malata sucks. That is all
Doesn’t this sound like the life sense that comes with enough Breath? First heightening?
I have a feeling we may see Gavilar Kholin again, as a Cognitive Shadow.
Prologue
So, CONFIMED, Gavilar is a jack@ss. Good to know. And the Heralds are in on his scheme, which explains why they were at the feast.
Oooh! A Box that transports people to and from Braize? And possibly, in Gavilar’s opinion, to other worlds? And the Heralds are trying to escape the system entirely. How cowardly of them.
Chapter One
I do not like Lirin’s PoV. I especially don’t like they way he thinks of Kaladin. He insisted on Kaladin being referred to as Kaladin, but now that his son has become the thing he opposes, Kaladin is downgraded to “Kal” in his mind, eh?
This is not a good man. This is a man who is definitely broken inside, in his own way, like everyone else in this book, but he’s maybe the definition of “nice is different than good.”
Not much to say about the rest of it. I wish we had actually gotten to the action.
I had a couple of questions come to mind after reading that Gavilar held multiple wierd glowing spheres in his possession. First, as was previously brought up, I wondered what Gavilar did with the rest of his spheres that night since they were nowhere to be found after his death. My own thoughts on this is that he probably handed them out to various individuals throughout the night, rather than storing the spheres someplace elsewhere. My second question though, is that if this is the case, who was Gavilar planning on giving his last sphere to, if anybody at all? He still had one sphere left during his fight with Szeth, and we know that Szeth ended up with it. So who was it supposed to go to? It’s also likely that Gavilar was simply keeping one sphere for himself, but this was just the question that popped into my mind after I read the prologue.
@24 – the first impression I got was also of Life Sense! But how Gavilar could have obtained and used Breaths is beyond me… it’s certainly a stretch assuming he has access to off-world forms of Investiture. I think the reasoning of a hovering Ulim-type makes more sense.
@7:
Because Gavilar is just using the Sons of Honor the same way he is using everyone else. His goals are not necessarily theirs just because Amaram thinks they are.
@17:
He’s working on making the box work. He may have different goals than the Heralds he is speaking with.
Posted this in the other thread, before I saw that the main discussion is here:
Hm…, I used to think that Gavilar merely wanted to prepare the world for the Final Desolation that he knew was coming from the visions, using questionable methods, but no, this seems to have been all about his ego and he was simply a villain. Poor Navani.
Intriguing tidbit about a “box” used to transport whatever is in the spheres – probably voidspren. I bet that Hoid would like to learn more about it.
I am utterly flabbergasted that Gavilar seems to be completely unable to recognize Jasnah’s potential. Like, wasn’t she already a famous scholar and didn’t need to publicly deny the ardentia to win reknown? Why does he want to “get rid” of her, when she should have been such an obvious asset for his undertakings? Also, from Jasnah’s prologue in WoR, Gavilar didn’t order her to marry Amaram, so why does he claim that he did? Odd.
It is also odd that Gavilar reproaches Navani for chosing a more advantagious marriage – isn’t it a normal thing to do, for Vorin nobility? I am curious about her “prestigious ancient lineage” too, given that apparently Navani had a backcountry upbringing.
Also, Navani’s decision to keep her secrets, for the sake of her family and Gavilar’s memory turned out pretty terribly. I guess that we’ll see some kind of compare and contrast between that and Dalinar spilling the beans in his Oathbringer book and the backlash that this will cause.
EvilMonkey @23:
From this conversation, it doesn’t seem to me that the Heralds have been “working” with Gavilar – it looked more like a first meeting between them, with him making his pitch to them. Kalak would like to collaborate, but Nale is not impressed.
And Nale can’t go for Gavilar directly without a warrant, remember. But I do think that he had a hand in the Parshendi having an ultimate assassin at their beck and call at the right time. He is certain here that they won’t talk again and when Jasnah overheard him and Kalak in WoR prologue, they implied that they were somewhat responsible for what was going down.
Kalak not mentioning Liss to Gavilar doesn’t mean that _Nale_ didn’t know about her. She could still be a Herald, IMHO.
Darthair @22:
A very interesting theory, but wouldn’t it have killed Kalak if Gavilar took his place? From the talk about “not as far as you’d like it sounds like Kalak wants to leave Rosharan system
@27 Gavilar had a meeting with Amaram and some others after he leaves Navani, right? Maybe he gave them to those people. Maybe such a sphere is how Odium, probably first through his spren, got into contact with Amaram. It does seem, from the end of Oathbringer, that Amaram had been in contact with Odium for some time.
Extrapolating from that, maybe there are other people around the world who have been talking to Odium for years, introduced through those spheres of Gavilar. His feast was attended by people from all over, and the spheres Navani sees all disappear in the time between them talking and him getting assassinated.
Ironic that his conversation with Navani constitutes the only things Gavilar says that I feel that I can rely on being truthful statements on his part- that he’s trying for God-King.
I’m wondering if the Singers/Listeners/Parshendi get sick the same way humans do. Perhaps Lirin’s assumptions to how sickness works in humans is preventing him from listening to the Singer. It’s a complaint that many have in our medical community today, that doctors don’t listen to their patients, brushing off their concerns. For all we know, spren can actually make them sick. Their bodies are literally made to absorb spren afterall. Maybe some spren can act like avirus and infect their gemhearts unwillingly. Lirin’s casual dismissal of her concern’s points to his narrow-mindedness and stubbornness when a viewpoint opposing his own is presented to him. It’s similar to how he treats Kaladin’s choice to be a soldier in order to protect others.
I see the number of years from current plot time to assignation of Gavilar has increased. It is now 7 years ago whereas in WoR and OB it was 6 years ago (and 5 years in WoK).
Interesting that Navani did not think highly of her daughter-in-law? Given what Aesudan became (a willing agent for Odium), I do not pity Aesudan. From the little we know of Aesudan, it seems she was a power-hungry individual.
I wonder if the reason that Dalinar wears a beard is because at the time of his death, Gavilar wore a beard. In many ways, Dalinar idolized Gavilar.
I wonder if Gavilar knew that the people he was talking with in the Prologue were Heralds. Possibly since Kalak mentioned that another of “them” was present at the feast. Perhaps Gavilar thinks his visions are telling him to unite the Heralds and to do that he needs to bring Taln back from Braize. That could be why he wants a connection between Roshar and Braize.
Gavilar comes across as a jerk in the Prologue. I wonder if we get another view of Gavilar that puts him in a better light. Most of the Stormlight Archive characters have many different facets. When looking at one facet, the character can be a vile person; another facet may make him/her a likeable person.
Once Navani learned the truth of how Evi died, it would not surprise me that she thinks she can understand how Dalinar believed that Evi’s death was Dalinar’s fault and how that guilt consumed him. Navani thinks that her prayer somehow was a cause of Gavilar’s death; her prayer unfortunately answered. Without her prayer, the Almighty would not have answered her prayer and take Gavilar. It would not surprise me at all if this comes up at some point during RoW.
Due to events in my personal life, I feel I relate to Navani. Either due to the person I have become since I married my spouse, the person she has become since she married me, or a combination of both, I do not think we are in the same place as when we were first married. I am sure some will criticize Navani’s behavior in this Prologue (both when Gavilar was alive and when she found out he died). But I will not.
Lirin’s following thought “People who got a taste of power wanted more, then sought it with the sword” is similar to some of Moash’s thought. Hopefully something so awful in Lirin’s life (perhaps the death of his wife and young child) will not happen that will cause Lirin to side with Odium.
I am not a fan of Kaladin very much. However, I like Lirin’s attitude less. I am in line with those who fight for a cause they believe in no matter how bad the odds. Sometimes, it is better to die for your beliefs than live under a tyranny you hate. With the loss of such freedom one is accustomed to, I think many more would fight than Lirin would expect. As long as those who fight do not force others to fight with/for them when those others would rather surrender, I have no problem with them fighting what amounts to a hopeless battle. A number of nations have resulted from victories by those who a neutral observer would consider the inferior force.
Lyndsey & Alice. For most of the time, when Navani’s marriage went South, Dalinar was still married to Evi. I do not think back then Dalinar would agree to cheat on his wife. He always believed he was not good enough for her. He would not want her to be the victim of infidelity. Likewise, I cannot see Navani want to have an affair with Dalinar if he wasl still married to Evi. I do not think Navani would want to be a woman who knowingly has an affair with a married man; especially the mother of two nephews she loves. After Evi’s death, I think Navani realizes that Dalinar is in no condition to have an affair. Even if Dalinar was not a drunk, he idolized Galivar. He would not have an affair with Gavilar’s wife. It does not matter that Dalinar is still in love with Navani.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Isilel@30:
I don’t think that has anything to do with it. Jasnah’s “potential” is just immaterial to his goals, so it doesn’t matter. Her decision to “flout” the church, however, as actively hurting his designs.
I have a quick question… There are two threads for the prologue and chapter 1…One with the actual chapters and one with Alice and Lyndsey’s analysis. Where should we post our thoughts and comments on the chapter?
I am confused as to where our thoughts are best suited.
Well, those of us posting here would prefer you continue to do so :) But that’s nothing like an official answer. This thread is a continuation of the Stormlight Archive Re-read, I believe, although Alice may correct me :)
Blanchiff @14. I think Gavilar is truly dead. I do not think Brandon will use the fake-out death troupe. I believe I recall Brandon saying he is not a fan of that troupe if it is used repeatedly. He used it for Jasnah and Szeth (with Szeth, if only for a few pages). I do not see Brandon using it a 3rd time. If he needed Gavilar alive at the end of the series (either the 1st 5 books or in the back 5), then he would have written it as a character fakes his own death scene but no other in-word characters realize he faked his death.
Anthony Pero @26. Where is your sense of anticipation?
Thanks for reading our musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@37: OK that’s what I thought. I haven’t read chapter 1 yet nor Alice/Lyndsey analysis: this came out as an early surprise! It is taking me while I am not done with The Great Litterature Project Book 1. So I have lots of reading to do. I’ll come back once I am done.
@38:
“Hey man, I’m just here for the hard magic system!”
Brandon should sell t-shirts with that on them, lol.
RE: @14. Truly dead doesn’t mean truly gone. We have no idea what he was up to, or how much knowledge he had. It increases every time we learn about it. And a fake-out death, or even a death and resurrection, is not the same thing as a Cognitive Shadow.
Maybe Gavilar used the box to transport the spheres to Braize, where they were then infused with Voidlight (Odium is bound to Braize; along with the Fused)
Has anyone pointed out yet the “gift” that Aesudan got? Seems suspect
Reading the prologue really hammered into how difficult a marriage Navani & Gavilar had. My feelings towards Gavilar were neutral before but the end of this prologue changes all that for me. It helps explains Navani’s thoughts in OB regarding marrying Dalinar.
Kaladin still has has his shash mark! With the new Bridge 4 poster showing him without it, I’m anticipating seeing him being able to lose the brand sometime during the book.
Lots to digest here! There are a few comments Id like to reply to, but I’m not quite sure how to do that on this platform yet I’ll see if I can figure it out
I could see Lirin becoming an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher
Couple things. Transportation I think the direction keeps getting mixed up. They didn’t say Roshar to Braize. There verb was bring. Not sure it means anything but it sounded to me like it was something coming from Braize.
The thing this section hits for me is the way that disfunctional relationships turn the participants into what they despise. Gavilar’s treatment of Navani turned her into something he despised. Part of the reason it hurts so much is she knows it’s part of the truth. I wonder if we’ll see how she did anything like that to him.
Gavilar probably thinks it is difficult to find a husband for Jasnah because besides being a heretic there is the mysterious mental illness as a child when she was locked in a dark room.
I wonder if the plague in the west is going to make an appearance in Dawnshard. Hope it isn’t as bad as COVID.
Because if it is, we might have to start calling it (puts on shades) a novella coronavirus.
(My sincerest apologies. I could not resist.)
I saw the box as a version of the Vanishing Cabinet from the Harry Potter books. They form a (implied) 2-way link and allow access to a previously inaccessible location. Most of a back-burner plot in book 6 revolved around getting it working again to get people into the inaccessible location.
Mods, please spoiler everything after the first sentence if necessary, my phone isn’t letting me mess with the text color.
OK. So I finally caught up with my reading: this re-read is happening a month earlier than I anticipated, I had planned to cram in two or three books between now and what is now, now. It is undeniable now the Great Litterature Project (a personal endeavor to read the classics of literature) will taint my views, in fact it already has.
Prologue
First, full disclaimer, I read none of the preview chapters, so this was the first time I was actually reading Navani’s prologue. I’ll admit I liked it more than I thought I would. I really enjoyed the loathsome portrayal of Gavilar, a man I am absolutely enjoying to hate right now, too bad he is dead. What a jerk. Those who participated in the OB’s reread will perhaps remember how negatively positioned against Dalinar I was, how I hated him for how he treated his family, but I do agree with the above commentary: Dalinar was apathetic and emotionless. Gavilar downright belittled his children: to him they were nothing more than an annoyance he needed to control for fear they would sabotage his great legacy. It made me angry Navani chose not to tell the truth, chose not to break the worshiping her children, Dalinar and the boys (Adolin and Renarin, I will treasure each one of their short apparition). Hearing this, I guess I can better see how she refused to do the same for… Dalinar later on.
Still, while I enjoyed the first take at Navani as the new main character, I couldn’t help but believe she was, in part, the architect of her own miseries. It was pointed above her task should not have been to overlook the preparation of the feast: kings and queens have people to do that. She was micro-managing and no doubt she got on the never of the real steward. Also, Gavilar’s treatment of her was unforgivable, but I do think it is wrong to blame Gavilar for Navani’s lack of personal accomplishment. I personally believe each individual is responsible for their own accomplishments or lack of. As such, if Navani wanted to get recognized as an artifabrian, then it was up to her to take the steps towards earning it, she shouldn’t have waited for Gavilar to do it for her. So there. Women can choose their own destiny and they don’t need men to tell them what they should or should not be doing: Navani falls prey to it, preferring to blame Gavilar than herself.
I do think she was quite the gold-digger: she marries the king because he was to be king, that much is obvious, but now she regrets it.
All in all, a very interesting prologue.
Chapter 1
In chapter one, I appreciated the following: how Sanderson stopped victimizing the Parshendis and had Lirin comment on how, now they overthrew the former lighteyed, they behave… in the same manner their former masters behaved. They are no better and for a man such as Lirin, it matters not who gives him orders or stands above him. To him, it is all the same.
I really enjoyed Lirin’s discourse on the uselessness of heroism. These tags right into my personal project as I chose to pick… War and Peace from Leo Toistoi as my first read. In this gruesome, and very real world, there is no such thing as heroism, the great message passed onto us from nearly two centuries ago is there are no heroes on a battlefield. No man single-handily dictates the course of battle and while boys and men alike dream of heroism, they all end up dying in atrocious suffering. In Sanderson’s world, heroism appears to be real because we follow half-Gods with super-powers, but the reality, down there, in the field must be one of the broken dreams of heroism as boys realize warfare is not quite what they thought it would be.
I thus loved Lirin for speaking the truth about warfare thought I also believe he is dead wrong in believing resistance is futile and they should just bow down to the new leadership. That’s not in mankind’s gene to do such a thing. Still, he does have a point that while this great general leads his rebellion, his people are dying and starving. That is true too in War and Peace as Napoleon’s dreams came at an insane cost in human lives, a real carnage. It is great to have at least one character who worries about the cost of warfare and whether or not it is worth it. He is not entirely right, but neither is he wrong and his views surely are more realistic than Kaladin’s over-blown idea of heroism and Dalinar’s neglectful care for the death toll.
I felt I had more to say, but I forgot what exactly… Perhaps it’ll come back. Oh yeah, I did wonder if Gavilar somehow found a way to cheat death, that would be really interesting. Ah, and I think Navani would have been happier with Dalinar because Dalinar would have been always away and left her to do… whatever she wanted to do. The fact he didn’t love his kiddies wouldn’t have mattered any more than it mattered to her how Gavilar loathed his.
@31 I think that is a likely scenario. As far as I know, we see nothing of the sphere given to Eshonai after the prologue in OB. I have long thought that whatever she did with it, that somehow Venli began her communication with voidspren via the dark sphere. I could see it being a situation where Eshonai actually entrusted it to Venli to study, and Venli later makes some untrue excuse about destroying it.
If they “brought” voidspren from Braize via the box, we can easily envision other scenarios like Venli’s where the voidspren are laying groundwork for the return of Odium. They could be doing lesser supporting work, or they could have all been aimed at different methods of actually allowing Odium to return, and the Everstorm was the one that bore fruit first.
While I can agree that Navani seems to do a lot of micromanaging I am not totally on board with her being the author of her own suffering. She cares about the kingdom, she helped to build it. Husband and Wife in Alethi culture are supposed to be a team and Gavilar is increasingly dropping the flipping ball. She could marshal her resources better but she has no confidence in others to do the job right. Less an author of her own suffering than a victim of her own competence. Maybe if Gavilar was doing his job it would free her up to pursue some of her other interests. Or she could have totally devoted herself to her own interests and doomed the kingdom she helped to build.
While I can agree that Navani seems to do a lot of micromanaging I am not totally on board with her being the author of her own suffering. She cares about the kingdom, she helped to build it. Husband and Wife in Alethi culture are supposed to be a team and Gavilar is increasingly dropping the flipping ball. She could marshal her resources better but she has no confidence in others to do the job right. Less an author of her own suffering than a victim of her own competence. Maybe if Gavilar was doing his job it would free her up to pursue some of her other interests. Or she could have totally devoted herself to her own interests and doomed the kingdom she helped to build.
Okay, crazy theory, but what if they’re trying to capture the Stormfather in the prologue and transport him away from Roshar. That way they can take the Storm’s with them, and leave before the next desolation. They become gods (Knights Radiant) in their new world, and escape the fate of the Heralds on Roshar
I still think that Gavilar had some Breath and that’s why he was able to locate Navani so easily. I also think that he may have been counting on getting enough Breath for the Fifth Heightening to become immortal. Much easier and more pleasant than somehow replacing a Herald, provided that he knowingly worked with some worldhoppers, which is almost certain by this point.
Johnjaylward @33:
We have no reason to think that the Fused told Abijan that the plaguespren were dangerous – if this had been the case, she wouldn’t have let Lirin argue with her. It is far more likely that this is something that she picked up from Alethi folk suprestitions. Nor is it plausible that any old spren could lead to a singer form – if that had been the case, it wouldn’t have taken the Listeners millenia to rediscover just 3 of them (they already had the dullform and the mateform when they escaped BAM).
It is a fine balance with concerns – some are legitimate and some are born of ignorance. The trick is to correctly identify which are which – and so far we have no reason to think that Lirin is wrong.
AndrewHB @34:
Dalinar doesn’t wear a beard! He is clean-shaven and in OB had a scene where he explicitly thought about why he liked it that way.
Anthony Pero @35:
Gavilar needed people to work for him, particularly scholars and researchers, as he was neither. He apparently recruited Aesudan, why not Jasnah who would have been much more useful? Her contribution would have only served his goals and helped his own aggrandizement. Was he, perhaps, afraid of her stealing his thunder, since she was already considered a certified genius?! BTW, it seems like Jasnah will have to recant her biography of Gavilar at some point… or at least add all the unsavory stuff that she is going to learn about the father whom she admired and loved so greatly.
JoyBlu @43:
That’s the only way to respond to comments available here – you just name the author and the post number and then lay it out. Not ideal, but workable. I am looking forward to your insights.
@many:
I really, really hope that we won’t see Gavilar again! Death shouldn’t be a revolving door. And it would be pretty ironic if in the Prologue from his PoV in book 5 Gavilar believed it to be, for him, only to be bitterly disappointed in the end.
Gepeto @49:
I love “War and Peace” volumes 1 and 2, but pushing against “the great man” ideal Tolstoy really goes overboard in the later half of the epic and in the end comes to the conclusion that nobody can affect anything at all and it is all predestined. Which is equally false, IMHO.
Yea, Gavilar is another terrible parent – though it doesn’t seem like he openly belittled his children to their faces. In fact, in WoR prologue he was amiable to Jasnah and _didn’t_ order her to marry despite what he told Navani. Of course, Jasnah isn’t the most astute person where social interactions are concerned, which may have shielded her psyche in this matter. But Ehlokar must have sensed his father’s opinion, and it explains so much about him. Also, Gavilar’s performance as a ruler during those last years – when Ehlokar would have been old enough to learn from him, provided a terrible example. And poor Dalinar wouldn’t have been much better either. Whereas both society norms and Gavilar’s influence prevented him from looking to his mother for lessons in governance. Sigh.
I now think it possible that Gavilar did experiment on Jasnah, which resulted in her childhood madness. Also, that he always used Navani for his “dirty work” where Jasnah was concerned, which led to conflicts and a frought relationship between mother and daughter.
Lirin, too, has another less-than-stellar moment as a parent, where he thinks how both Kaladin and Tien(!) would have been surgeons, if not for the warmongers, willfully forgetting how Tien had been so averse to medicine that he had to apprentice him to a carpenter. He really has a “mini-me” problem where his kids are concerned doesn’t he? Almighty help Oroden if _he_ turns out not to be into surgery either!
Patillion @50:
Yes, IMHO that’s exactly what happened with Venli and Ulim. I am still convinced that it was Nale’s highspren that led the Listeners to Szeth. Nale would have wanted to remove Gavilar, but because of his code couldn’t do it directly.
EvilMonkey @53:
Yea, it is entirely possible that the micro-managing was necessary to keep everything working, particularly when Gavilar kept staging events on a very short notice. Noble wives/queens were often supposed to oversee their husbands households and/or administer their lands iRL too. Lack of recent tradition of kingship likely worked against Navani as well, since there wouldn’t have been an established way of doing things.
@53: EvilMonkey, all through the prologue, Navani lacked self-assertiveness. She was in a situation she disliked, but she tried nothing to solve it, preferring to wait for Gavilar to realize it and change it for her. Take the artifabrian. It matters not who, when and how he was invited to the feast: he is there now. She wants to talk to him? Why is she waiting on Gavilar to introduce him to her? Why is she angry at Gavilar only to rationalize he might have meant him as a gift to her?
Be a woman. You want to talk with this man? You do not whine in your corner you did not know he was there. You seek him out, you ask him if he could spare time to discuss with you, you arrange your servants to secure a private room. You do not cry over your evil husband for not doing it for you.
I loath Gavilar, but really, Navani shouldn’t have waited on him to fulfill her own dreams. She should have tried to achieve them on her own which is why Gavilar’s barb hurt as much as it did. She is, in part, to blame for her lack of self-accomplishment. I have no doubt this is why Jasnah distanced herself from her mother as she moved into her teens. Navani probably was the last person she wanted to emulate.
Navani only sought control over minor things she should have delegated while ignoring the real endeavor she should have taken.
@54: Isilel, Brandon said beards were not in a fashion on Alethkar. I took this was why the prologue mentions Gavilar was rocking a beard while it’d look ridiculous on most other people.
Yeah, War and Peace gets… annoying right here towards the end which is why I am at: 85% of the book. Still, it was quite a heart-wrenching ride! Everyone thought I was mad when I picked it up a few weeks ago. Ever since I have been rambling on Napoleon this, Napoleon that much to the annoyance of my family except my mother. Some parts of the story were rather slow going but others flew by. It is true Tolstoi ultimately sells the idea no single man can influence the course of things and all actions are futile. Still, given the battles he was depicting I cannot fault him for believing this is true: I didn’t get the feeling Andrei or the random soldier being killed by a random bullet, for instance, had much power to influence their destiny and the reason I brought it up is I felt it reflected on Lirin’s thoughts, right here, in the first chapter.
Warfare leaves nothing but desolation behind it after it moves forward: fields will have been trampled when they haven’t been burned, villages will have been pillage for the food and good the army desperately needs to survive and the poor peasants will have been left with nowhere to live and nothing to eat. That is the gruesome truth of most warfare. Tolstoi describes it aptly: soldiers are cold, hungry, miserable and the whole warfare suddenly appears so futile you wonder why it is being fought in the first place.
Hence, it is not surprising a man such as Lirin, who has seen the horrors of war and, most importantly, has seen the wreckage it leaves behind would arbor it with all his might. His perspective clearly differs from other characters who alternate between believing war is heroic (Kaladin), necessary (Adolin), a way of life (Dalinar).
On the matter of Gavilar’s bad parenting, well, I have decided between him and Dalinar, he wins the palm. Gavilar clear disrespects towards his kids, his belief his son is mediocre at best, his daughter an annoyance he needs to mary off to a man he trusts to control her before her heretic views could damage his reputation seems far worst than Dalinar’s neglect. After all, Elhokar grew up trusting others more than he trusted himself, believing leadership and strength equated bullying, thus surrounding himself with greater bullies (Roshone, Aesudan) only to act like a bully himself towards lower people. On her side, Jasnah broke nearly all ties with a mother who lacked assertiveness, who couldn’t make a decision for herself and waited on others to make them for her. She became quite the bully too, she too, emulating the father she worshipped.
In light of this, I can better understand how everyone managed to keep on worshipping Dalinar too… Navani’s refusal to expose the truth despite wanting to could indicate how the story will unfold: the truth is more damageable than the lie.
And yeah, Lirin also has his own problems, but at the very least, he did not transpose them to his kiddies.
@@@@@55
I don’t know that feminism is all that big on Roshar as a whole, much less Alethkar. Jasnah is the only one it seems, yet she undermines her entire movement by being a heretic. I’m not saying she’s wrong to feel as she does, just that she’s unique. Navani is traditional, religious, proper, and has been told that she is supposed to be a model for all Alethi women. To step out of that role would constitute a radical societal change, one that her husband is sure to punish her for. I mean look at how long it takes for her to go courting Dalinar despite loving him for nearly 20 years? Call her a coward for not stepping out and being more independent if you must, but to do so likely condemns 90 percent of the Alethi female population for the same.
@@@@@Isilel
How good of an actor is Gavilar for him to have so much hatred and contempt in his heart, yet the world seemed to love him anyway? I mean look at the list. Sadeas was an eel, yet he never even thought about betraying Gavilar. Dalinar spent his entire life as the man’s dog robber. Elokhar failed as a king because he wanted to be just like dear old dad. Jasnah desperately wants to bond with her father even as an adult. Taravanginan likely went to the Nightwatcher based on what he discussed with the man. Servants were crying at news of his death. Hell the entire kingdom went to war over his death. Gavilar held in all that poison only to spew it onto Navani at every opportunity. And speaking of Navani, how good of an actress was she to keep that aspect of Gavilar’s personality concealed despite her pain?
@@@@@ all
Dude would have been a disaster for the Bondsmith role.
IT BEGINS.
Really looking forward to this read-along!
I was a bit surprised by just how terrible and self-aggrandizing Gavilar was in the prologue. We of course saw him setting out to conquer Alethkar in the various OB flashbacks, but his open disdain for Navani and his children took me by surprise here.
Kefka @@@@@ 5: I like the theory about Taln and the box.
Islel@54:
Whether under the influence of Odium or not, Gavilar is obviously a narcissist of the highest order. Gavilar would not find anyone useful that he can’t control. Therefore Jasnah’s scholarship is useless to him. He can’t even get her to do (in his mind) a simple thing like marry someone, which he feels is a completely reasonable request. How could she possibly be of use to him in his more secret endeavors, when he can’t even exhibit the normal control over her that a father should have (from his narcissistic viewpoint)?
Therefore her scholarship is useless to him. Because it’s not under his control and never will be.
Evil Monkey@65:
I think the obvious inference is that, like Dalinar, Gavilar went from being an ideal in Alethi society to something else. But in Gavilar’s case, that something else was under the influence of Odium because of the voidspren and the spheres. I don’t know that Jasnah would change her biography if she finds out the entire truth.
@59
When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. Jasnah is a scholar that believes in truth and knowledge but she also has her own agenda and will print what best serves that agenda. If that means tearing down Gavilar’s legacy, she will do it but I don’t see that helping her so I agree, she won’t change it.
(NOTE: I have not read any of the comments or replies, these are my first thoughts on the first content release after finishing the read-along article by Alice and Lyndsay. So if this is a repeat of earlier comments / thoughts, I apologize.)
We saw in Oathbrigner, through the Dalinar flashback sequences, that Gavilar was concerned about his legacy even in the early days of uniting Alethkar. In the prologue of Rhythm of War, we discover his need for a legacy has taken over every aspect of Gavilar’s life, to the point where (it appears) he is no longer even conducting his duties as King.
The other thing we see is a level of cruelty in Gavilar we had not witnessed before – perhaps like Dalinar, the goal was give us a more favourable impression of the man before really understanding all aspects of his character. What I do find interesting is that the behaviours – wanting a legacy, power, cruelty, demeaning conduct, even unhinged anger – Gavilar portrayed in the prologue is something we have seen before… in Lin Davar.
Is Galivar being influenced by the Unmade or even Odium, like Lin Davar was? Could this be the (or one of) the reasons we see Gavilar’s dark personality? If so, how has this impacted Galivar, and by extension the Sons of Honor, and their goals? If Odium had his eye on Dalinar, there is no doubt he also had his eye on Galivar.
Lyndsay brought up an interesting question – is Galivar trying to create a new Oathpact?
What better way could Gavilar, in his mind, cement his legacy than being a new herald, or better, the new king of the heralds? An immortal champion of humanity!
That does not seem so far fetched to me, given his behaviour and attitude.
We have Gavilar thinking the needs of the kingdom (and being king) are a trifle and below his needs to create a true legacy (ie: border disputes = BORING! etc). We know one of the goals of the Sons of Honor is to force a new desolation. We have two heralds (Nale and presumably Kelek) working with the Sons of Honor, who are trying to transport something to/from Braize. Could the real purpose of the Sons of Honor be to install 10 new heralds to replace those that abandoned the Oathpact (or, maybe just 9, if Taln still wanted in…) to ensure a continual cycle of desolations? Are they perhaps trying to bring/kidnap Taln to Roshar as the means to make that happen and create a new Oathpact with new heralds?
Also, could this have been what Odium wanted? Sort of seems like it.
I know there are a lot of holes in this theory… but perhaps an equal amount of holes or delusions of what could actually be done, if this really was the Galivar / Sons of Honor plan – either by ignorance or Odium’s influence.
@28
Well considering that Vasher personally trained the Kholin boys in swordsmanship, it’s not impossible that Gavilar found him out and coaxed some Breath from him.
Actually, on second thought with gifting Breath it’s all or nothing as far as we know so…. Idk. Maybe Vasher knew how to get him some.
@Sapa
For Breath it isn’t all or nothing, Denth lied to Vivena about that.
So Gareh (the palace steward) is Ishar, right? The description of him definitely sounds like Ishar and also the fact that Kelek reminded Navani of the steward seems like big hint as well.
“The Makabaki one leaned against the bookcase, his arms folded, his face completely expressionless. The Vorin man wrung his hands, reminding Navani of the palace steward, though this man seemed much younger. Somewhere… in his twenties? Maybe his thirties? No, he could be older.”
@65 – we’ve already got confirmation from the Stormfather that Tezim, the warlord/”god-king” in Tukar is actually a completely mad Ishar, (and also that Nale would occasionally go to him for advice)… So that theory is out.
Navani: I loved having insight into a more mature women’s point a view. She’s peeling back her layers and we see a character who has lived with the consequences of choices she made as a young woman. We have no idea if being from a “backwater country” how influential her family might have been in her choice over husband. We hear from Gavilar, his opinion of her. I didn’t see Navani accepting that opinion in totality for herself. I haven’t really learned all the rules for women and men in Alethkar much less Roshar. We know that Shallan was being educated to take over the estate of her father and later husband before life took her in a different direction. Navani’s POV left me with more questions and wanting more.
Lirin: He’s another character who’s backstory would be fantastic to be witness to in flashbacks.
He’s decidedly chosen to stay and continue to work where he is at. I think of his POV as the common person’s view. This perspective is the witness to the long term effect of the “war”. It might be a “game” to the High Princes on the shattered plains to war over the heart of the chasemfiend. Lirin is there to show us the on going life and struggle of those left in their communities. His aspirations for his children are no more odd to me than the parents I know trying to steer their children into certain fields. Totally unsupported I feel like if there is a “medicine” spren character (?) and that he might have been a squire in training. I think he’s stated the first ideal off page, and has spoken the 2nd or 3rd ideal of that order. “I will heal those who are injured or sick regardless of species,class and ability to compensate me for my services.” “I will take the responsibility of those who will live, those who will die and know that there are injuries to which I cannot help, I will comfort and move on to those I can help.”
Gavilar: I liked not liking Gavilar.
@56: We have seen Alethi women’s choices were elaborate than the ones women couldn’t make just a few decades ago in the real-world. Women are the scholars, the engineers, the researchers, as such, Navani’s desire to be one of them shouldn’t come across as a prelude to unexisting feminism. As such, the fact Navani has literally nothing to show for her “brilliant mind” and her desire to design fabrials is more her own doing than anyone else’s. If she wanted to be seen as more than an eccentric lady who loves trinkets, then it was up to her to position herself as such.
I hate Gavilar and the emotional bullying he is guilty of, but he wouldn’t have been half as successful with it had Navani actually put her capacities to better use. Being married to the king she certainly wouldn’t have gotten as many opportunities for it as she would have had she remained single, but between that and nothing, well, the difference has to be her own will-power and might.
I recall, in previous books, we all wondered why it seems both Jasnah and Elhokar weren’t close to their mother, why they both seemed to have shut her out… I believe the prologue now answers this question, at least, it answers it for Jasnah. My thoughts are thus Jasnah shut her mother out because she was embarrassed by her, because she disrespected her lack of personal ambition and because she acknowledged her mother literally have no personal accomplishment to show for her so-called brilliant mind.
This brought me back towards how I once felt next to my own mother, a woman from another generation who never professionally accomplished much despite claiming she could have, had the circumstances been different. Younger me disrespected her stance because, to my eyes, if you want something, you go get it. You do not wait for it to magically materialized for yourself, you do not wait for other people to award it to you. If you have nothing to show for your worth, then you are just talking wind: this was an easy hill to stand on, as a young person, when your parents are not people you want to emulate.
I can see how Jasnah’s perspective could have matched my own: her mother is nothing but a micro-managing patron overseeing the kitchen instead of putting her mind to greater tasks. This must have come across as a complete waste of potential from Jasnah’s perspective and it probably defined the life she absolutely did not want for herself. I can actually relate to this.
While I do not think Navani was a necessarily coward, but she definitely did not have the will-power to fight for her own self. She stood there expecting Gavilar to think to give her what she wanted and this portrayal is not one I find endearing.
It is better to try and fail than not to try. At least, this is how I am seeing and Navani, in this prologue, was a woman who did not try. She suffered in silence while secretly hanging on the idea she could have been more without every proving it nor living it. I hate silence.
I agree with @59 Anthony_Pero: Gavilar was not interested in Jasnah’s studies because Jasnah’s studies were of no use to him and he couldn’t control them. He saw Jasnah as a threat to his reputation, so he wanted to get rid of her (by marrying her to Amaram) before she could start damaging it. Gavilar was a control-freak.
Now, what I find fascinating, is how come no one ever stood up to him… Or how Jasnah could have been so oblivious to his behavior.
@61:Steve, I do not find Lin Davar’s behaviors match with Gavilar’s. Lin Davar is a tragic villain in the sense he was broken by taking the blame for his wife’s murder in order to protect his little girl. This guilt ate him alive and left him vulnerable to an Unmade.
On the reverse, Gavilar reads like a rotten piece of a human being… He was the man who killed all his relatives in order to become Highprince, he was the man who started a terrible war because he wanted to be king. He claimed it was for the greater good, but Lirin is right, unneeded warfare never is for the greater good. Once he finally became king, it was still not enough as he had to be THE greatest king to have ever lived, strong with an eternal legacy.
I do not think a naturally born narcissist megalomaniac such as Gavilar needed an Unmade or Odium to be nefarious. He just was a terrible person who’s every negative trait was reinforced by his successes, not unlike Dalinar, but unlike Dalinar, he never met… his wall. So he got worst and worst and even worst.
@67: Sage, I think the backwater comment simply meant Navani was a middler of no importance up until she married a backwater thug who became a king.
I personally love hating Gavilar. If he weren’t dead, Navani de-throning him would have been a very satisfying arc.
@66 yeah absolutely, but that was also 7 years ago…so it is possible that was before he became the God-King.
Also IIRC, there is a WoB stating that all the heralds were present at the feast that night. (I could be wrong about this, but that WoB is what originally made me think that this was Ishar)
@Gepeto
If a woman has that many more choices in Alethi culture then why did Jasnah feel it was necessary to write her treatise on a woman’s role, the one Shallan was so impressed by in WoR? I’m sure they had much more leeway in Alethkar than most typical Victorian society analogs but there was a glass ceiling. Just so happens that the men had one as well.
Anyway it’s entirely possible that she could have done more to pursue her passions. I’ll even buy that Jasnah’s relationship with Navani soured due to that perception. But keep in mind a couple of factors. One, if Gavilar was neglecting his royal duties to the extent that we see in the prologue for a number of years then it’s completely possible that Navani felt if she slackened in her efforts the foundation of this glorious kingdom would fall like a house of cards. Gavilar and his personal magnetism only gets you so far. Second, Gavilar is a dirty player and a true Alethi, meaning he’s gonna use any weapon in his arsenal to achieve his aims. Is it outside the realm of possibility that he poisoned the well when it comes Navani and her relationship with her children? Hell, now that I think about it he could have stifled her attempts to do more with her scholarship as well. It would be in his best interest to keep her boxed in to the role he assigned for her, keeping the trains running on time as it were and leaving him free to dream big dreams. That would on a way also explain why Navani, a devilishly effective organizer, would fall victim to the sin of micromanagement. She’s bored, boxed into a role too small for her talent. Gavilar has killed her relationship with her children, actively shuns her from his great purpose, makes clear to her that he only trusts her with household management tasks and minor political disputes, and uses his personal charisma to threaten her if she steps too far off of the path he set her on.
So knowing this, what would Navani’s options have been? She could have left him I suppose, but that would have lost her what little access she had to the movers and shakers of her chosen field. Plus it’s a sure bet that Gavilar would have alienated her from her children and possibly even had her killed. She could have feigned incompetence in the role Gavilar had for her, leaving her to pursue the things she did have interest in. But the Alethi nobility are a pack of predators forced together by a charismatic king with a WMD on a leash. It can be argued that if she dropped the ball someone would take advantage, thus putting her entire family in danger. Fight back against her restrictions and Gavilar snatches away even the small amount of access she’s allowed. She could not win.
In my opinion, the prologue is another example of great story-telling by Brandon. I have not seen anyone discuss the example I will detail below. My apologies if someone has and I missed it.
In WoR, we first are told by Jasnah that Navani is an expert in fabrials. Jasnah hopeful (at least she puts on a hopeful front when talking to Shallan) that Navani may be able to fix the broken Soulcaster. Later in WoR, however (the scene where Navani tests the floating bowman center), Navani confesses to Adolin that Navani does not think of herself as part of the actual design team of all the fabrials she has been part of the development. She says to Adolin in a morose tone that she is no more than a rich benefactor; at best tolerated by the true design team: the Ardents and other architects. Navani laments that (at least in Navani’s mind), the reality is that her involvement in the creation and design of the fabrials is no more than a hobby; something that a Brightlady can take with other Brightladies and Brightlords at posh party. Several books later, Brandon shows the reader how Navani may likely have developed this mindset. We see her final argument with her now deceased husband. Gavilar knows that Navani has a deep respect / love of the creation of fabrials. Yet he thrusts a verbal Shardblade into her by taunting Navani that she has not created anything vis-à-vis fabrials. She is merely a fabrial groupie.
I believe the truth is the the Ardents and other architects in the fabrial community do value Navani’s contributions. Both monetrary and from a design and development prospective. Yet Navani believes otherwise. Her “hobby of fabrials (using Navani’s words to Adolin) is another example of the eccentric dowager queen.
I hope in RoW, Navani comes to learn that she is an accepted and valuable member of the fabrial community.
Per the summary of the Knights Radiant Orders that Brandon posted earlier this summer on his web site, I think Navani would shine as a Releaser (aka the Dustbringer). She has a love of learning how things work at a component level. Yet, she also understands the need for outward control in how others see her.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@Andrew
Yeah, having someone you at least used to love crap all over your dreams and aspirations has lasting effects. It’s not the sort of thing that goes away.
I’ve been doing a series re-read and haven’t made it to Oathbringer yet, so some of those details are a bit fuzzy. However, a few things from these chapters come to mind…
I think we’ll learn more about what Aesudan was up to (before the Unmade stuff) before this is all over with. Between Jasnah’s assassin, a reference in WoR that one of Dalinar’s best footmen was in Kholinar spying on Aesudan, and now this secret meeting with the master artifabrian… I think she had her own agenda, and that there is more to tell of her story. From Navani’s point of view, Aesudan is incompetent, and this interaction is seen more as a snub against Navani herself. I’m not convinced.
Lirin definitely still hasn’t come to terms with Kaladin’s path in life. I’m interested to see how he holds to that, especially when fighting turns to thunderclasts instead of people.
I’m reminded from WoR that Roshar’s year is 500 days, so the time gap is a little longer than I first thought.
If it’s really been a full year, what happened during the Weeping?! Considering the Weeping is when the Everstorm kicked off, to weird effects, what happens the next time around?
Two quick thoughts:
Gavilar’s discussion with Navani contains both a veiled reference to her alleged infidelity, and a reference to Jasnah as “your” daughter. While that second item could be taken as a passive-aggressive reference to a troublesome child, similar to the way he refers to her in the next breath as “the girl”, taken together it could mean that Gavilar is actually not convinced that he is Jasnah’s true father. That may have some interesting implications regarding his relationship with both Jasnah and Navani, and the as-yet-unseen events in Jasnah’s childhood.
Second, regarding Navani and the master artifabrian; we saw a quote, from Navani’s perspective, on the relative impropriety of an Alethi woman inserting herself into a conversation between men. Presumably, opening that kind of conversational doorway would have been Gavilar’s role in a healthy Alethi relationship, which is one reason why Gavilar’s failure to do so stung so badly.
Nathan @69:
The steward can’t be Ishar, because according to a WoB Ishar looks like a Shin and from Jasnah’s prologue we know that Szeth definitely was the only Shin on the premises.
EvilMonkey @70:
Indeed, as the first generation of royals the Kholins had to be very careful lest they be toppled and, according to Alethi practice, all killed. Navani had to hold things together to prevent that, regardless of her own preferences. It also took Jasnah’s intelligence work, but it left her enough time for her scholarly pursuits. I have to say that Dalinar’s PoV chapters from WoK where he and Sadeas are doing the same stuff for Ehlokar as Navani did for her husband, with Ehlokar being rather uninvolved look diffently to me now that I know that he was emulating dear old dad.
Brandonw@73:
Yes, I am now sure that Aesudan was the second woman in the group observed by Eshonai in OB prologue, that also included Taravangian, probably Adrotagia, Amaram and one other military-looking man whose identity is still unknown. And frankly, I begin to wonder if Gavilar wasn’t having an affair with her during his last days.
Andrew Higgins @74:
It almost looks that way, doesn’t it? It seems to me that Gavilar very much cared about Navani’s indiscretion and didn’t believe her denials. And all 3 of them likely were in the same place when Jasnah was conceived.
Regarding the ardent – I don’t believe that the usual Vorin gender customs apply to them, so Navani wouldn’t have needed an introduction to talk to him.
I thought seeing king Gavilar in this negative light was so reveling. It seemed he was a perfect and righteous king that had no bad bone until we saw his rule through the eyes of his wife. It shows you that just because someone seems alright, they may have a darker side to them that they hide.
Does it seem like Navani is headed towards being a truthwatcher? She seems to meet a lot of the requirements from this prologue…emotionally or mentally broken, a deep fascination with fabrials and how the world works (which we already knew).
I for one can’t wait to see some interaction between The Mink and The Lopen. After all, they’re probably cousins, and they share a first name (The).
Gavilar was a known follower of Nohadon’s teachings; now, we have seen only samples from Nohadon’s book, but it is still clear what kind of man, what kind of king, he advocated for; Gavilar was aspiring to be that man, and this prologue turns everything on its head… the power hungry, egomaniac and bullyish man it depicts is not the same as the one that follows the codes. And he couldn’t have changed that much because his adherence to the codes happens in the last part of his life. He also couldn’t have adopted a moral posture just for the public – firstly because there was nothing to gain – given alethi morality, he was loosing support not gaining it (we see this with Dalinar too), and secondly, because he was surrounded by smart people whom he could not have fooled, and who loved him (like Jasnah). Only explanation possible (with my limited imagination) is that he slowly became corrupted by Odium; it remains to be seen how and why…
This comment isn’t really related to the new book, but I just got finished reading The Way of Kings, and liked it a lot. Was going to buy Words of Radiance, but couldn’t seem to locate a seller that I could be sure was selling non-DRM epubs.
If anyone has any recommendations, I’d appreciate it.
@81: All Tor/TDA ebook titles are DRM-free (and have been since July 2012), so you should be able to find a DRM-free copy of the book at Amazon, B&N, Apple, Kobo, Google, and most other major ebook retailers, including the ones listed here. If you run into any problems, try contacting Tor Books directly through their social media or webmaster(at)tor-forge.com
sistertotherain @2 – You know, that’s a good point about “no wonder Elhokar was such a miserable king.” He may not have had a lot of natural gifting, but it’s almost certain that his father didn’t foster any great improvement, either. There’s every chance he could have been a much better leader than he was if Gavilar had been willing to try to train a successor, rather than being so focused on his own “greatness.”
Kefka @5 – I will hold the theory of Liss=Chana until Brandon proves me wrong! That said, there’s no reason Nale and Kelek would necessarily have been aware of her presence. Shalash gave herself away by her “handiwork” of destroying her statue, and Chana might be better at not leaving such obvious traces.
David_Goldfarb @8 – Thank you! I find the distinction is well worth knowing.
Isilel @30 – I agree, Gavilar’s dismissive attitude toward Jasnah is baffling. Also infuriating, but… Anyway. He seems to be contemptuous of his entire family, even though they all adore him, and all but Jasnah apparently obey him unreservedly. Whether this is just the old “familiarity breeds contempt” or his insane arrogance, I can’t guess, but it’s rather appalling. I expect we’ll learn more in the Book 5 prologue, but for now, I personally loathe the man.
johnjaylward @33 – Well, that’s something I hadn’t considered. I like the theory. What if, indeed, the spren can affect the singers directly, and in ways they can’t affect humans? This bears consideration!
Gepeto @36 – Kinda late with the answer, but beginning with Chapters 4 & 5, commenting will be closed on the actual chapters, and the discussion will all take place in the Read-along.
Anthony @37 – Yes, in a real way this IS a continuation of the Stormlight Archive Reread series. :-)
eitanatie @47 – Well, it made me laugh!
Gepeto @55 – Navani wasn’t waiting on Gavilar to introduce her to the ardent. She made the excuse for him that perhaps he had hadn’t told her about inviting the ardent and was planning to introduce her as a surprise, but she was moving to go introduce herself when she got a call from the cook. She tried to send Aesudan to see what the cook needed while she herself followed the ardent, but Aesudan took off in another direction, ignoring Navani – and Navani, as always, set aside her desire for her duty.
Nathan @69 – I’ve looked, but cannot find any evidence of WoB one way or the other on how many of the Heralds were at the treaty feast. If you can find it, please share; so far, I’ve only seen proof of four, and possibilities for one or two more. While I cling to the idea that Chana was there as Liss, there’s no proof. As far as I can tell, we haven’t yet seen any evidence (or candidates) for Vedel, Pailiah, Battar, or Ishar. (I don’t believe the steward was Ishar, and I believe there’s a broad hint as to who he actually is right in his description. But we’ll wait and see.)
@many – There are a lot of great theories and ideas going on here! I can’t wait to walk through the rest of Part One with y’all!!
@78 – I love it – “The”.
The prologue blew me away. I didn’t like Gavilar anyway and this just cemented it. Given the spheres that seemed to contain voidlight I have to suspect Odium has some part in how Gavilar has turned out but there is also a chance that his yearning to “never end” and be a legend also created his personality. He used everyone he knew from the start even if he wasn’t “bad” when it all began. He used Dalinar, as someone already mentions, as WMD and then he pulled back to start separating himself from the violence even as he continued to use Dalinar as the threat he was while keeping his own hands clean.
I really hope he is dead and the prologue is just his “Ozymandius” ending. Too many of you have me thinking he may be a Fused now. If he does return I want Navani to trap him in a gem and use it to power the septic system in Urythiru.
Lirin is a conundrum for me. I have to agree with hating how war destroys the innocent who have no say about it. At the same time, he feels a bit like the governments who let the Nazi war machine roll over other countries while not saying a word against them because it kept their country safe. Until it didn’t.
Nale is adamant that radiants aren’t returning In previous books. How does that make sense if he is working with Gavilar to return the heralds and the radiants?
Aesudan knew that Gavilar was learning about the unmade and bonding spren but we don’t see her with Gavilar at all in this prologue. Maybe she is involved which is why Gavilar married her to his “useless” son?
Gavilar specifically recruited Amaram to the So s of Honor. Why not Sadeas? Amaram seems to play a minor role publicly but is extremely well connected behind the scenes. Did Sadeas know what Amaram is doing?
I’m just excited to finally be able to join in one of these. WoT has always been too close to my heart to join in but this I finally read the last book a few months ago an now I can join the hype train
Hi, rereaders,
As is my way, let me point out a parallel in the Stormlight Archive. The Singers are plotting an assassination (of Gavilar) just as Jasnah is (of Aesudan). Aesudan and Gavilar are themselves parallels, hideous tyrants of Kholinar who willingly sacrificed their own children and were associated with Odium and the Voidspren. If Aesudan had been killed, wouldn’t everyone have been better off (except her)?
As mentioned upstream, Brandon has said that all 10 Heralds were present. Which seems to imply that Taln is here!
That steward … really, nobody else sees it? A steward, wearing lots of rings? Nobody else read Mistborn (he asked rhetorically)? It’s clearly a Terris worldhopper.
@28, bridge4kufer
Gavilar has a literal slave who is one of the Returned from Nalthis, though. He clearly deals with Worldhoppers. We know that Mraize has sand from Taldain and a teacher from Scadrial. Why could’t Gavilar have some Breath?
@45, Tommy:
Here’s a theory. Taln never broke.
The mysterious box was used to transport him back to Roshar. That’s why the Oathpact sort of still works and not all the Fused have returned. Taln didn’t break, he was physically transported back to Roshar.
OK, more thoughts came to me.
Aesudan is part of Gavilar’s conspiracy. She was detailed specifically to keep Navani from talking to the artifabrian or figuring out what was up with the magic box. I would be shocked, at this point, if she didn’t have an affair with Gavilar, just to make him a bigger hypocrite–while he berates Navani for an imaginary affair, he’s actually bedding his daughter-in-law.
#88 I could see this. She knows way too much to not be involved but Gavilar doesn’t seem like he would be willing to share power with her or anyone else and would have included her as a pawn and not as a partner. This could also explain why she felt the need to outshine Gavilar in WoR.
Carl @@@@@ 87
Please find the WoB where he said this. I’ve searched and can’t find it, so I’m not buying this claim without proof.
Re: Heralds at the feast… I checked with the beta team, and no one there knows anything about a WoB that they were all there that night. We know at least 4 were. We also know that all ten were seen (or referred to in another guise) on the pages of TWOK. I strongly suspect those two tidbits have been conflated. So… let’s not be calling that a fact, until someone can produce more proof than “I heard it somewhere.”
I suspect that Gavilar had breath from how he noticed Navani behind the door before he looked directly at her. I suspect Vasher was already in the Kholin employ at this point and while Dalinar has no idea about where he’s from, did Gavilar? And the other one – Felt? From Scadrial. Was Gavilar deliberately collecting world hoppers or are they just so prevalent on Roshar?
Something I noticed when I first read this, and forgot to post until a reference Way of Kings Prime reminded me: “monastery”? Are there monks on Roshar? Did I miss this in the last three books?
When I read this I was blown out of the narrative for moment. I actually thought, “Are we on Nalthis now?”
I agree with those who believe Gavilar won’t be back. He asserts to Navani that he will “never end”, but we know Brandon likes his characters to be wrong sometimes. He may have been on the way to take steps to that effect, such as forging a new Oathpact, but likely this was interrupted and nullified by him being killed hours later by Szeth. He said so many things that we know aren’t true in that argument with Navani – why would this belief turn out correct?
@87. Carl I love the idea that this is a Terris worldhopper – it would make sense! I’d think that his description would include being tall though, since that’s very characteristic for the Terris.
Hah, Amaram almost-literally “bit the bullet” when he consumed a small deadly object. :-p
Navani believes Sadeas displays “genuine sorrow” at Gavilar’s death. Does he actually feel that way?
No thanks to anguishspren “like teeth growing out of the walls.”
@44: Yessss, I can imagine Lirin as an Edgedancer.
@94: Alethi are also especially tall, so I don’t know if a Terrisman would stand out among them height-wise.
@94, vocalnerd: Hmm … there is a WoB that SPOILERS IN BLACK-ON-BLACK a Faceless Immortal is on Roshar and we have seen them. A Kandra might impersonate a Terris person if acting as steward ….
@68 It may be the case that Navani tends to shy away from ambition but I don’t think this was the reason Jasnah shut her out. As I recall a article written by Jasnah where she strongly advocate the fact that the role of a woman should not be decided by anyone other than herself. She does not berate anyone for being a housewife. Also, I do not think Navani blames Gavilar for her not being an accomplished woman. It was Lyndsay who blamed him(or was it Alice? I forgot actually). Navani just accepts that she is a lady who likes trinket. And I do not think there is anything wrong with that. Some people are build that way.
I’m curious by what they meant by the capital c Connection – it does seem like they are exploring some type of travel, but to what end?
I mentioned this previously, but I also wonder of Gavilar is in part wounded because he knows deep down Navani chose him for his rank, and is insecure about that (and thus turns that against her and uses it to justify his own toxic behavior). Especially the way he leaves her to do all the real work of running a kingdom, but then crows about his great ‘legacy’ and simultaneously demeans her for doing those things instead of pursuing greatness. Yes, she probably should have delegated a bit, but she’s obviously got her own baggage there and was overwhelmed since she and Gavilar clearly weren’t a team. Navani DID try to talk with the artifabrian but she kept getting pulled aside by other thankless tasks that are part of the nitty gritty of the day and had to be done.
@Gepeto – War and Peace is great. I enjoyed a lot of the great Tolstoy and Dostevsky books when I read them during a smiliar binge on maternity leave :) In a very pragmatic sense I do agree with Lirin – at what point do ideals – even grand ideals like freedom and resistance – start to outweigh lives? Is it REALLY worse to live in thrall (as some see it) as if there is no good or quality to a life like that? But of course…I can’t fault anybody either for wanting to resist unjust treatment, or the spread of another regime (ie, the Nazis going through Europe). On the other hand, the cycle continues to repeat.
@98 lisemarie. War and Peace is fantastic except for when Tolstoi spends way too much time to explain his thoughts. The idea of whether or not war is worth fighting is truly interesting and not one we get to see in fantasy where war is usually heroic. Except war often isn’t heroic. War and Peace made me yearn to read the not so heroic side of war like Andrei dying as he watches the sky (I guess we got Adolin feeling the same but we did not get his POV…)… Poor Andrei. It is thus great to have Lirin as a POV.
I am done with it now and I have just finished Six of Crows. Wow. That was a good one, off to the sequel now!
Is Gavilar abusive or is Navani a Shrew? I’m going to take Amaram’s “endorsement” on that one.
Gavilar had visions, but Odium gave counterfeit visions.
Oooh, good catch. She got Ashertmarned, and later Amaram got Ashertmarned. And… there’s several of them. :o
Is anyone else perplexed by why Navani has loved Dalinar for so long? Past!Dalinar doesn’t seem to have been all that nice to Navani. He wasn’t around for many many years while he was married and then when he came back he was an alcoholic who avoided her. What was there to love? And how does someone who loved Past!Dalinar end up also loving current!Dalinar?
It doesn’t seem likely to me that someone who loved a violent warmongering drunkard would also be inclined to love a kind responsible tea-totter.
@100: Aesudan got Ashertmarned and Yelig-Narred. Amaram only got Yelig-Narred.